Curse

Hella Good · Jun 02, 2006, 02:54 AM // 02:54

There are no counters to bla-bla is a bold statement at best. Diversion destroys CoP. I don't know what's with your belief that Blackout is somehow better at disabling CoP. Yea, if you chain it... otherwise Diversion is clearly a better solution for CoP.

Also as Terra noted you have gazillions of new and old ways to stop enchantments.

Starfury · Jun 02, 2006, 03:27 AM // 03:27

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Originally Posted by Ensign

Arcane Languor is a Diversion that you don't care if you cast through. Exhaustion doesn't matter until you have a lot of it, and you're not going to get a lot of it from this hex.

That pretty much sums up what I think about AL. It pales in comparison to the other non elite shutdown skills like diversion and backfire.

Siren · Jun 02, 2006, 04:15 AM // 04:15

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Originally Posted by dgb

And that's just not going to happen. Langour works in the same way as diversion, you don't see good monks running around in top level PvP with five skills diverted, you won't see good monks running around with fifty points of ehaustion either.

We don't see Monks running around with five skills diverted because the effect of Diversion is not "universal" to the Monk's energy pool. Diversion directly affects the skills themselves. Arcane Languor doesn't give a shit whether the Monk casts Reversal of Fortune or Prot Spirit, because it targets the energy pool itself. Let's not forget that Diversion ends when it's triggered. Arcane Languor...doesn't end when the first Exhaustion is triggered.

Comparing the two skills doesn't work when you examine them further, man. The entire parallel breaks down when you start getting into what the skills do.

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Uh, that's not the point. You need langour to inflict ridiculous levels of exhaustion before it gets crippling because of a monks ability to dynamically alter their max energy.

Thirty points of exhaustion is skimming off the top, if you take that out a monk will play around in the areas below it. To get crippling you have to give a monk a max of 20 energy across all equipment variations, which is going to need about sixty points of exhaustion.

I'm sorry, I must have forgotten the options for focus swapping. What were they again? Going to negative energy, swapping up, swapping down...am I missing any there?

The negative energy trick only works for active drain. That's the entire point of going into negative energy: so you can't get targeted by active drain e-denial. Energy Burn can't take 8E out of you when you're running at -5E after swapping down.

You can swap up if you need to, right? Let's say you just got Exhausted by 30 points right off the bat, because you had no choice but to cast, because your other hex removals were either pre-occupied or their own hex removals were locked down. You're down to 20E, right? You're burning through that, and the recovery from Exhaustion is severely limiting your ability to cast anything other than the typical BoonProt spam. (Oh, and let's not forget typical BoonProt spam is what put you at 30 Exhaustion in the first place)

But wait, what's that? You've got +E foci in another weapon slot? Yeah, because it's just stupid to go into battle with all of your energy "out." So you swap up. If you're really hurting for energy, you may very well be swapping up to a set that's dropping your energy regen down by two pips.

Do you believe that's tactically sound, especially if the opposing Mesmer has already had such success with Arcane Languor? You're giving that Mesmer even more of your energy to Exhaust. Yeah, you'd swap back down, into negative energy, after casting what you needed to cast, but if that Mesmer already threw yet another Arcane Languor on you, with the suitable cover hexes...you just got hit with another 2-3 rounds of Exhaustion. Your emergency energy reserves just got raped in the eye (and that's a pretty nasty skull-f--k). lol

So you really want to tell me that the Mesmer will need to inflict 60 Exhaustion to cripple the Monk? If you tell me that, you're dead wrong, because the "opening" energy pool (normal regen, normal energy pool) is radically different than the "closed" energy pool (more energy at the cost of pips of regen). The opening E-pool operates independently of the closed E-pool, just like how the closed E-pool operates independently of the opening E-pool.

It's not a total of 60 Exhaustion required to cripple the Monk. It's 30 for their first item set, and maybe about 20 for their alternate. Once the first 30 Exhaustion hits, that number is no longer a factor, because the goal of focus swapping (apart from defending against active drain e-denial) is to temporarily boost--rather, temporarily replace--one's energy pool for further casting. And once that Monk focus swaps, their opening E-pool no longer exists, which means the basis for your argument here doesn't exist.

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How about no.

So you have no build then? Come on, dude, let's be honest here. Either you have some build that forced "intelligent hex removal" on four of your eight characters, or you're trying to bullshit people here, and since you're trying to bullshit...you have no build. Rather, you have no workable build.

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Then why the hell are you mentioning it at all?

I mentioned it because I was illustrating there are other options available for e-denial, you fool. lol. And those other options have different philosophies behind them rather than the asinine and trite Surge build.

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Then you're not playing your mesmer right.

I guarantee you that Monks would disagree with you. And any other non-Ele spellcaster, come to think of it.

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So you're going to devote three, maybe even four characters just so you can get your strategy to work.

Keep thinking that.

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No because it's flawed. Mesmers have powerful defence mechanisms themselves and when communicating well can overextend to blackout a monk reasonably safely.

I always find it entertaining in GvG when Mesmers overextend to Blackout a Monk and end up getting spiked into the ground. It's really quite fun to do, as well. The spiking them into the ground I mean.

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If you're talking about Equinox just remember that you're asking to take an elite spirit, which is probably going to die in about ten seconds which you can't oathshot to bring back up.

Yeah, I'm sure that with the new overabundance of damage mitigation, evasion assists, wards, blinds, snares...even spirit heals themselves...something like Equinox is going to die so quickly. Especially considering it's a level 10 spirit at 15 WS? That's a tough little bugger there.

And what'd be even more fun about doing Equinox? Rt/R for the Spawning Power, not to mention being able to whip out stuff like Shadowsong, in addition to doing a bit of trapping around the spirits.

Sorry, you were saying something about...Equinox ultimately...sucking? That's basically what you were getting at there, wasn't it? Yeah, I don't think your assessment is all that believable when you get even mildly innovative with the build design.

Avarre · Jun 02, 2006, 04:23 AM // 04:23

So your point is that an elite spirit, which is very noticeable by the other team, that's powering your exhaustion shutdown, is not going to be targetted?

The other team would likely move out of range, or move in and slaughter it. Level 10 lasts how long against an adren spike? A spellcaster spike? A single split warrior?

Siren · Jun 02, 2006, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

So your point is that an elite spirit, which is very noticeable by the other team, that's powering your exhaustion shutdown, is not going to be targetted?

The other team would likely move out of range, or move in and slaughter it. Level 10 lasts how long against an adren spike? A spellcaster spike? A single split warrior?

Considering how for the build I have in mind...Equinox isn't required? That Equinox isn't powering my exhaustion shutdown? That nowhere did I ever imply the build would be depending on Equinox? That I only mentioned Equinox in a brief sentence as a purely incidental point in a previous post and then some people expanded upon it?

Avarre, you're a smart member. What do you think?

Avarre · Jun 02, 2006, 04:34 AM // 04:34

I was referring to that sentence. What did YOU think?

In a build that did utilize Equinox, they wouldn't use it unless they were trying to get a benefit by causing exhaustion. Hence the situation is stated.

Point being, any build using that elite spirit is likely to find it ground into the dust, which you claimed at the end of your previous post was unlikely.

Theos · Jun 02, 2006, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Considering how for the build I have in mind...Equinox isn't required? That Equinox isn't powering my exhaustion shutdown? That nowhere did I ever imply the build would be depending on Equinox? That I only mentioned Equinox in a brief sentence as a purely incidental point in a previous post and then some people expanded upon it?

Avarre, you're a smart member. What do you think?

Without Equinox the affects of Languor are pathetic, exhaustion does nothing unless you pile on alot of it, languor won't do that against a half compitent player. Thats where Equinox would come in and where Avarre would be correct.

dgb · Jun 02, 2006, 04:48 AM // 04:48

I give up, I can't be bothered arguing with someone who won't see reason. You keep running around with Langour, I'll keep using reasonable options, it's not my builds that are getting gimped by substandard skills...

Siren · Jun 02, 2006, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

I give up, I can't be bothered arguing with someone who won't see reason. You keep running around with Langour, I'll keep using reasonable options, it's not my builds that are getting gimped by substandard skills...

Then at the very least, post your build that has hex removal on four out of the eight characters. Or link to it. Or something. Anything.

Regarding Avarre and Theo...instead of writing off Arcane Languor, why not see how it performs first, hm? For all you know...7 seconds is all it'll need to wreak major havoc with BoonProts.

Themis · Jun 02, 2006, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

CoP was an issue, it no longer is. At 10s recharge (double what it was before), it is quite balanced. Before, it was very hard to use hexes effectively vs Boon Prots, I believe it's much easier now.

Moreover, only Boon prots use CoP. Nobody else does. Neither SB/infuse, nor healers. So CoP is good only for GvG (rarely in TA).Even on GvG, all guilds that used 2 boon prots start using only one (thanks to Shadow Shroud). So, there's is only ONE boon left, and ONLY in GvG.

Hella is right. Everything has a counter : CoP needs at least 10-15 energy (CoPing+reapplying enchants) to be effective. And a Boon prot doesn't allways have 15 energy to spare for removing a couple of hexes, except if they hexes are really disturbing. Much more than disturbing. So, CoP is not an issue anymore. Fullpoint.

dgb · Jun 02, 2006, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Then at the very least, post your build that has hex removal on four out of the eight characters. Or link to it. Or something. Anything.

What is the point? If you can't work out what four characters would carry hex removal there is no point arguing with you. If you need to know the exact build to work out a way to beat it with AL then that's a ridiculous assumption to make because in real aplications you never get to see a build in advance.

Themis · Jun 02, 2006, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

What is the point? If you can't work out what four characters would carry hex removal there is no point arguing with you. If you need to know the exact build to work out a way to beat it with AL then that's a ridiculous assumption to make because in real aplications you never get to see a build in advance.

Well, in fact, me neither, I cant imagine a build with 4 out of 8 carrying hex removals...

If you REALLY have such a team, it only means your strategy is based on combinations that can be very easily countered by common hexes., so you need to remove hexes intensively. But why would you have such a hex-sensitive build, in the first place ?

Hella Good · Jun 02, 2006, 05:41 AM // 05:41

There rly is very little point in putting more than 3 condition/hex management skills in an 8 people build. If the other team is doing conditions spam or hex heavy, they will overwhelm you, no matter how many skills you have devoted to handling conditions/hexes. In a GvG situation skills like Arcane Languor are most likely to appear in a hex heavy build, where you have your Necro Hex Master (Siphon/Faint/PB/etc.) and you are most likely to carry a bunch of hexes yourself.

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Originally Posted by Ensign

Arcane Languor is a Diversion that you don't care if you cast through. Exhaustion doesn't matter until you have a lot of it, and you're not going to get a lot of it from this hex.

I think this comment was before they announced they plan on doubling the duration of AL. I have said in numerous threads that AL sucks. And it did suck- 4s duration at a reasonable amount of FC was ridiculous. It seems to me that now you can get about 6-7s for the same amount of points. That makes a big difference. It makes the skill viable.

Siren · Jun 02, 2006, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

What is the point? If you can't work out what four characters would carry hex removal there is no point arguing with you. If you need to know the exact build to work out a way to beat it with AL then that's a ridiculous assumption to make because in real aplications you never get to see a build in advance.

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and call bull on this one, then. There's only a handful of hex removal in the game at this point.

From Mesmer, you've got Shatter Hex (costs 15E), Hex Eater Signet (costs potentially 24E), Inspired Hex/Revealed Hex (both cost 5E), and Expel Hexes (Elite-5E).

From Monk, you've got Blessed Light (Elite-10E), CoP (5E), Withdraw Hexes (Elite-15E), Convert Hexes (15E), Reverse Hex (10E), Smite Hex (5E), Deny Hexes (5E), Empathic Removal (Elite-5E), Holy Veil (5E plus maintain), and Remove Hex (5E).

From Ritualist, Resilient Was Xiko (5E and barely hex mitigation).

Now out of those, which are mildly viable hex removals? I count five (Expel Hexes, Blessed Light, CoP, Reverse Hex, Holy Veil). All of the other skills are too expensive for anyone other than casters, and even then, spending 10-15, and sometimes Signets costing 20E...is rough even for a caster--especially in the middle of combat. And especially when at most, that 15E is being used to remove one hex.

Two of those are Elites. Regarding the Elites there, why would you be using an Elite slot for hex removal?

Regarding CoP, it's not a team hex removal.

Reverse Hex. Why would any character want to spend 10E to remove one hex or provide what basically amounts to a more expensive Reversal of Fortune?

Holy Veil. Pre-casting is all well and good, but in an eight-man team? It's basically nothing more than a CoP (i.e., solo hex removal).

Come on, dude. Your options for hex removal on four of eight are laughable at best.

EDIT: And Hella, how freakish is it that we're agreeing on something? It's only happened what, once before? lol

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 02, 2006, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

There are no counters to bla-bla is a bold statement at best. Diversion destroys CoP. I don't know what's with your belief that Blackout is somehow better at disabling CoP. Yea, if you chain it... otherwise Diversion is clearly a better solution for CoP.

Also as Terra noted you have gazillions of new and old ways to stop enchantments.

Of course Hella and I never seem to agree; there are two sides to every coin. However there is only one side to this arguement however.

Diversion for CoP ehh? Maybe when hell freezes over. If I was a boonprot (and to some extent I am; played one a couple of times for my guild-successfully I might add) I see diversion once and I use inspired hex, regain some energy, put up holy veil and wait for it to come again. Second cast I remove veil and it is mute again. Third casting inspired is up again...blah blah blah diversion sucks as a counter for cop.

Say I didn't have either of those skills, or they were interrupted (although inspired has a 0 second recharge; WHODATHUNKIT!?) I could always wait out diversion. After all; it is just a blackout wanna be, I do not have to cast, I do have a choice. Blackout of course does not give them this choice like I said; it is the only "counter" or delay for cop. Nothing can stop CoP, if it wants to get through it will get through. Diversion, if spammed, may delay cop temporarly, but not nearly as effective as blackout would.

Diversion is a hex. It can be removed. If you are going to go through hell and back to place a hex on an enemy before cop/hex-removal arrieves, it better be game determining. AL is not game determining.

swordfisher · Jun 02, 2006, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Nitpick on hex removal options: you forgot purge signet (which will cost you energy out the ass) and reversed the action on Hex-Eater Signet (using it gives you energy for each hex removed, potentially tossing 24e at you, not taking it away).

Reverse hex is inexplicably regarded as mildly viable? It's junk- all the slowness of Remove Hex, with twice the E cost for a one time damage reduction on the next hit. Take that one off the useful list.

Avarre · Jun 02, 2006, 06:24 AM // 06:24

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Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

I see diversion once and I use inspired hex, regain some energy

O RLY?

A spell is considered cast before it's effect comes into play. It's impossible to inspire wastrel's off yourself, the casting of inspired removes wastrels before the hex removal triggers.

Likewise, last time I tried (while mes dueling) diversion will kill inspired before the hex removal goes through.

Siren : Blessed Light and Expel hexes, the two elites you mentioned, are very viable and used already in some builds, expel on a mesmer, blessed on a blessed light monk. Just because you mentioned it. 4 hex removals in a group isn't common, but if we're theorizing... say for gvg...

2 mesmer team;

Expel on 1
Shatter / inspired(on shroud mesmer)/ remove (on fcresmer) on 2

Blessed light on monk 1
Boonprot monk 2 with cop/veil/inspired/whatever

Eles can also pack all sorts of monk removal, from convert hexes to remove hex to whatever else.

dgb · Jun 02, 2006, 06:47 AM // 06:47

An inspired on each monk. Augmenting energy and hex removal.

A remove hex on a mesmer with MoR.

A veil on an emo - maintained nature synergises well with running.

There you go, four characters, all with viable hex removals. That's not counting the potential of CoP on the monks.

And why exactly is Holy Veil a CoP like self hex removal only?

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 02, 2006, 06:52 AM // 06:52

The thing is that inspired will recharge in 20 seconds; it will be active in 20 sec no matter what...diversion or otherwise

Avarre · Jun 02, 2006, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Not if diversion disables the inspired hex that is being used to try and remove it. From what I remember, diversion will whack inspired to +50s recharge and be gone, and inspired will swish through empty air.

Of course that assumes diversion is the only hex on you and therefore inspired has nothing to remove and eats + recharge. If you have another hex inspired can take off, then youll get the standard 20s other skill. I think.